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A new treatment for hypertrophy?

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Cynaburst Find out more about Cynaburst
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  • Lisa Salberg
    replied
    Behrang,
    There is no published liturature on Viagra and HCM - I would simply refer them to the PDR.

    Lisa

    Leave a comment:


  • behrang
    replied
    Viagra

    Lisa,

    we definitely need to educate our cardiologists!!. I have been there and knew what it does to the heart (pardon my frank language) . However, after septal reduction surgery, I have asked 4 different cardiologist, including one HCM expert (a well known one). they all told me it is OK to use it. Nevertheless, I have avoided it - preferring my experience over their advise. I appreciate is you can provide me with 1-2 articles that I can send it to them to possibly save a life. I think we all should do it.

    Behrang

    Leave a comment:


  • Lisa Salberg
    replied
    NO VIAGRA IS NOT GOOD FOR HCM!

    Lets look at the Physician Desk Reference - the PDR

    1. while taking viagra ' the systolic and diastolic blood pressures drop by 7-10 %
    2. Cardiac output decreases by up to 28%
    3. "there is a potential for cardiac risk of sexual activity in patients with preexisting cardiovascular disease."
    4. "Viagra has systemic vasodilatory properties that result in transient decreases in supine blood pressure"
    5. "caution in patients with previous MI, life threatening arrhythmia within the previous 6 months. Patients with resting hypotensive b/p's, patients with cardiac failure causing unstable angina "
    6. Under adverse reactions - "AV block, syncope, tachacardia, palpitations, ischemia, heart failure, cardiac arrest, abnormal ECG and cardiomyopathy"

    Need I say more?

    We are not patients with hypertension that caused our hypertrophy we have a genetic condition that has caused hypertrophy.

    Please stay away from this drug.

    Sincerely,
    Lisa

    Leave a comment:


  • dughr
    replied
    Hey Boz,

    HAH! Nit picking is good. Keeps one on his toes. I was trying actually to not be too technical and in doing so I did mis-state it a little. And, (trying again not to get too technical) in fact there are 3 types of muscle. In truth, there is skeletal, smooth AND cardiac muscle. The fact is, Cardiac muscle is actually somewhere in between skeletal muscle and smooth muscle, structurally. It does contain sarcomeres but much different are how the cells actually connect. They connect end to end at a point called an intercalated disc. So cardiac muscle cells are more like smooth muscle cells in that they contain only one large, central nucleus, are capable of involuntary contraction, and in appearance they look more like smooth muscle but they are striated like skeletal muscle cells, and the sarcomeres are there, but don't give the same appearance as skeletal muscle. Early on it was thought cardiac muscle was the same as smooth muscle because of the appearance, but with newer technology and electron microscopy it was shown that it was a whole different type of muscle altogether, so it was reclassified.

    So I think I may be getting too technical but I know for me it was good to understand structurally what exactly was this disease doing in my heart and how come it manifested in this way.

    Boz, you actually are right on target and stated it better than I. The sarcomere is why our muscle cells are in disarray (cardiac muscle cells only). It really gets very complicated as I think of it so maybe I should just shut up at this point. But offline it is a fun discussion I think...at least for a science geek like me. I have a link to a web site that explains it in gory detail for anyone who might care. Drop me a PM I will send it to you.


    Sorry for getting off the subject here regarding the Viagra. So, it does seem hard to believe that a drug like Viagra can do anything to fix a disease that is just so inherently structural in nature.

    Doug

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  • Boz
    replied
    Hi Doug-
    You are correct about heart muscle being known as “smooth muscle” and heart muscle is different than skeletal muscle when examined by microscope. However it isn’t because heart muscle lacks sarcomeres. In fact- HCM is now described as a disease of the sarcomere. Sarcomeres are a basic component of all muscle fibers, and specifically the major component responsible for muscle contraction. Sarcomeres in cardiac muscle are unique in a biochemical sense and perhaps this is what you were referring to.

    I was given several information sheets regarding the genetic test done by the Laboratory for Molecular Medicine. The lead in statement:
    “Genetic studies have defined HCM as a disease of the sarcomere – caused by mutations in any of 11 genes that encode different elements of the contractile apparatus in cardiac myocytes.”

    Aren’t I a nit-picker??

    Leave a comment:


  • dughr
    replied
    Thanks Linda.

    I also meant to add my skepticism on the use of Viagra for HCM types of hypertrophy. I agree with you Reenie.

    Leave a comment:


  • Linda
    replied
    thanks, Doug. Good explanation, but I couldn't type that much. Linda

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  • Reenie
    replied
    I'm skeptical about the use of viagra in HCM. The hypertrophy they're talking about is the type you get from overuse of the muscle, like when you have high blood pressure and the heart has to pump harder to make the blood move. Viagra works by dilating blood vessels, which isn't a good thing for HCM'ers. Many HCM'ers don't have high blood pressure to start with and when you dilate the vessels, the pressure will drop even more, leaving you will less blood to fill the chambers. We'll have to see how this pans out. That's not to say this drug may have its place in treating those with hypertrophy from high blood pressure, though. We'll just have to wait and see.

    Reenie

    Leave a comment:


  • dughr
    replied
    Well, HCMers don't have smooth heart muscle. We have disorganized muscle full of pockets of glycogen or collagen.
    Actually, what is meant by "smooth muscle" is not in respect to what you would expect. Smooth muscle is called smooth because of a small molecule that "studs" the muscle called sarcomeres. This is a connection point for muscle fibers. In skeletal muscle (like arm or leg muscles) there are many thousands (maybe 100,000 per cell) of the sarcomeres that join together the individual muscle cells. In tissues such as cardiac muscle or veins and arteries even, the muscle tissue has none of the sarcomeres. If you look at it under a microscope it looks smooth -as compared to- skeletal muscle, which has a striated appearance because of the sarcomeres. So this kind of muscle came to be called smooth muscle. It is also a muscle that contracts involuntarily, as opposed to muscles of the bicep for example where you decide when to contract it.

    True, our cardiac muscle does grow in disarray, but it is still by definition smooth muscle. The disarray is actually the individual muscle cells that are in disarray.

    Not sure if that helps or confuses things, but I just wanted to add that in.

    Doug

    Leave a comment:


  • Fred
    replied
    I don't mind being a guinea pig, or mouse in this case. he he

    Leave a comment:


  • BigHeart
    replied
    Re: Hypertrophy development

    Originally posted by Sarah
    The Forbes article I read
    explains that the Viagra is acting on the blood vessels and the smooth heart muscle. Well, HCMers don't have smooth heart muscle. We have disorganized muscle full of pockets of glycogen or collagen.
    You missed the next paragraph:
    "By contrast, in the heart muscle, rather than producing a direct relaxation response, PDE5A helps break down cyclic GMP, a molecule that acts to curb stresses and overgrowth in the heart."

    Leave a comment:


  • Sarah
    replied
    Hypertrophy development

    Hi

    I hate to rain on any possible parades, but I doubt that this will help HCM. The Forbes article I read (http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/heal...out523571.html

    explains that the Viagra is acting on the blood vessels and the smooth heart muscle. Well, HCMers don't have smooth heart muscle. We have disorganized muscle full of pockets of glycogen or collagen.

    THey only looked at hypertrophy (as far as I can tell) caused by high blood pressure, which is not the same as hypertrophy caused by HCM. So, I'm not holding my breath on this one.

    However, if it really pans out, it would save millions of lives and for that, I am grateful.

    S

    Leave a comment:


  • Abbygirl2
    replied
    Cynthia, thanks for posting this article.
    Regardless as to whether this turns out to be helpful or not in the treatment of HCM/HOCM, researchers are now wiser than they were before the study.
    Another door has opened, who knows where this discovery will take us.

    Experts had not previously known that PDE5A was involved in heart function

    Pam

    Leave a comment:


  • Cynaburst
    replied
    Hey everyone,

    Just to clarify why I posted this originally.....I wanted to share an interesting article that I read. In no way do I suggest that anyone with HCM should run out and get some Viagra. This is obviously research at the very early stages which is of interest to HCM'er. That's all. Its just interesting and maybe a little humorous.

    Have a nice day.

    Cynthia

    Leave a comment:


  • Jall
    replied
    But lets all cross our fingers. A cure for HCM whose only side effect is..(well, you know).

    Leave a comment:

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